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Mark 276 posts 02-04-03 23:05 Reply	Whenever I have a debate with someone that is agnostic or aethiest, it usually stops with the issue of faith. There is, of course, no way that the five senses (reminder: see, hear, smell, taste, touch) can show us God 'in person'. However, I try to show them that the only way the universe could have come into being was through God. They usually say something to the effect of, "Well, if God created matter, where'd God come from?" I didn't have an answer for that until yesterday, when I was searching for more evidence of God's existence. God exists outside of time - God wasn't created, like some believe. God also isn't human, and isn't made out of matter. He is a spirit (you can find this in the Bible - John 4:24 - don't quote me on that, as I'm not sure the source is reliable and I haven't checked a bible myself), and can therefore exist outside of time, since science simply can't explain Him. Many great scientists have a strong faith in God, both in the present and from the past. I've probably forgotten a few points, but in this box, it's hard to see all that I've written at once.
AcDecMan 111 posts 02-05-03 01:50 Reply	I have one thing to say: I'm not going to be able to change your beliefs just as much as i won't be able to change even fellow evolutionists beliefs about other things; and the one thing i feel faith and religion has helped us most is that it gives people inspiration to produce some great arts and that's not a bad thing. I think religion is a crock, but if you are christian (as in you believe in the teachings of christ without having to go to a "christian" church) or a Jew or Buddhist or whatnot it doesnt make you a bad person, it merely benefits you in your own way. I am benefited by my belief in atheism and such inspires me!! good day to all, and realize that being the optimist adds one more subject of hope to our society!!
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 02-05-03 02:27 Reply	"God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." -John 4:24 I see where you came up with the idea of God being a spirit. But let me throw this in. "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." -Genesis 1:27 That says we're created in God's image. If God's a spirit, then why do we have bodies? We're created in HIS image, are we not? And since we have bodies He must have a body as well, seeing as how we're created in His image.
Mark 276 posts 02-05-03 02:33 Reply	Ah... but image is one thing, physicality (correct word?) is another. We may look like God without being "biologically similar" to Him.
Darcy 88 posts 02-05-03 03:31 Reply	If you believe that man evolved from ape or whatever, and that man was created in God's image, are you saying that apes were made in God's image as well? I'm sorry, I just find that absolutely degrading.
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 02-05-03 04:34 Reply	Okay Mark, you go ahead and keep your idea of God being a spirit. But I find it more comforting to know that He is a God with a body and a spirit. I hope you'll find out for yourself one day.
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 02-05-03 04:45 Reply	Oh, Darcy, to clear up a few things. (If they were there.) I have a similar view as you do on man evolving from apes. God created man. Man did not evolve from apes. Sorry if I offended anyone by that statement, but that's how I feel.
Dexter345 677 posts 02-05-03 04:56 Reply	Hey Mark, that's a really good way to try to convince those who are scientifically minded of divine creation. "Science just can't explain God." Oh, it's all so clear. While we were sitting here looking for a logical explanation on things, all we had to realize is that the answer is the thing that has no logical explanation. Silly us. -Dexter345-
sirhannick 39 posts 02-05-03 17:41 Reply	I have no more insults. The world was created by the big bang, and man was created through a process of evolution. Damn, Eve is hot.
Darcy 88 posts 02-05-03 20:35 Reply	Jeremiah Walgren: The question in my previous post was directed towards Mark, not you--sorry if it was ambiguous :)
Mark 276 posts 02-05-03 21:42 Reply	Darcy: No, I wasn't saying that apes were created in God's image. I'm saying that God knew how humans were gonna turn out ahead of time, and that we (at this moment, as homo sapiens) are created (from birth) in His image. Jeremiah: I agree with you that God has a body, but I think it's through people... I'll try to relate it in a story: One day, a man was caught in a flood. He got on top of his roof to get above the rushing water. A little while later, a boat floated past. The man in the boat said, "Come in! Here, I'll help you get out of the flood." The man on the roof replied, "No thank you - the Lord will save me." Next, a police officer in another boat guided the boat said, "Here, jump in! I'll help you get out of the flood." Once again, the man replied, "No thank you - the Lord will save me." Eventually, the water got so high that the man had to climb on top of his chimney. Not long after he got on his chimney, a helecopter flew by, and let down a rope. The man inside the helecopter said, "Climb onto the rope! I'll help you get out of the flood." Again, the man replied, "No thank you - the Lord will save me." Finally, the water reached the chimney, and the man was swept away to his death. This story helps to show that the Lord works through people. In the Bible, it says that God is a spirit. I choose to believe the Bible. What will you believe? Your own opinion? God only has a form through Jesus Christ - a physical form, "in the flesh" - God Himself is a spirit. Dexter: Please don't be sarcastic.
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 02-05-03 23:29 Reply	You say that the Bible says God is a spirit. I looked at the scripture where you got that from and I can see how you came up with that. But I have a different view. Allow me to share it here. John 4:24 does say that God is a spirit. However, that verse is not entirely correct. Through modern day revelation, we now know that that same verse says this: "For unto such hath God promised his Sprit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth." Therefore, the Bible does not say that God is a spirit. And look at it this way. (Hypothetically.) God doesn't have a body, but I do. Therefore, I have something that God does not. That makes me better than Him. I'm better than God? Nuh-uh. That does NOT work. I will keep my "opinion" that God has a body. But to me it's not an opinion, but a truth. And I believe the truth. And my view on how God works through people is thus. God has Power. He uses that power to help people. It's almost like you using your "power" to influence something like a website by posting a comment. You don't have to physically be there to do it, but you can do it from a distance. And so can God influence and help people from a distance through his power. Now, if anyone has any questions about my views please e-mail me. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormon church to some. If that doesn't mean anything to you, the website is http://www.lds.org/. Thanks, and have a good day. (And if any of you wish to flame me for being mormon, please do it through e-mail so we can keep this board clean and Michael happy.)
burr 87 posts 02-05-03 23:30 Reply	When it says "we were made in God's image" it is referring to our spirit. If it meant our bodies, then all of us would look the same (same eyes, ears, height, hair color, complexion, etc. the list is endless) because we are ALL made in God's image. God has only one image; he does not change. From this we can conclude that "being made in God's image" is talking about our inward spirit.
Darcy 88 posts 02-06-03 00:15 Reply	Hmm....regarding that "does God have a body?" debate... In Genesis 18, God appeared to Abraham in the likeness of a man. So I think God does in fact have a body. I agree that man was created in the image of God in the spiritual sense, but I also think that man's outward body was created after the likeness of God as well. He appeared to Abraham in the form of a man, and the form of man is the form of God because man was created after the likeness of God. I see Him as the prototype, I suppose, both spiritually and physically. Well, those are my two cents :)
Mark 276 posts 02-06-03 00:30 Reply	Key word: appeared. This does not necessarily imply that God's "body" (and, don't forget, just because He's a spirit doesn't mean He doesn't have a form) came down to talk to Abraham. In fact, I believe the Bible says that one cannot look into God's eyes without dying, so it must have been only a representation. Did you read what burr said, though, about the "likeness of God" meaning God's spirit, or God Himself, since God is a spirit?
Darcy 88 posts 02-06-03 00:47 Reply	In case you are not familiar with Genesis 18: "The Lord appeared to Abraham...as he sat at the entrance of his tent in the heat of the day... [Abraham] said, 'My Lord, if I find favor with you, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. Let me bring a little bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on...' .....So they said, "Do as you have said." 1. If God is sans body, then what is the point of offering Him food to eat and water to wash His feet? 2. Hey, God is all-powerful. If he wants to talk to a man, I'm sure He can do it without killing the poor guy. 3. Yes, I did read burr's post. He said the "image of God," not the "likeness." While the two can be used synonymously, I consider His image as His inward being and His likeness as His outward form. Anyway...God is triune, from the beginning of time to eternity past, so He exists as the Father, the Spirit, and the Son (who does have a body). The Three are seperate yet inseparable. So, yes, I still stand firm in the belief that God does have a body.
burr 87 posts 02-06-03 00:47 Reply	The one thing to take into consideration is that God DOES, WILL DO, and ALWAYS WILL DO what he wants. God has control over everything. He is the Creator and he can do as he pleases. I believe that God can appear as a man (this is what Jesus was; the Son of God became a fleshly human so he could bear all of our iniquity) and that he can be a spirit; there is no limit on what God can do. The thing to remember is to not put God inside a box. A lot of people believe in God to the extent of what they can see with their human senses. The problem with this is that God's ways are above us; we will NEVER ever figure out God on our own. Of course if God wants to reveal himself to us then that is another story.
Darcy 88 posts 02-06-03 00:49 Reply	Ditto. God is just beyong our scope of imagination. Loving Him is more important than understanding Him, I think =)
Mark 276 posts 02-06-03 22:18 Reply	As I said in the other thread (Especially for Hart), what I say on these threads is not necessarily what I believe. I'm just trying to present possible arguments to aethiests. Darcy: argh! I should become more aquainted with the Bible. Please excuse my ignorance =)
Xathien 1255 posts 02-28-03 02:07 Reply	Hm... maybe it happened like this. I, for one, was created in God's own image, and placed upon this earth with my mother and father and sisters.... And my lineage goes up to Adam and Eve. Darcy, on the other hand, evolved from apes. I still find this hilarious: "If man evolved from apes, than why are there still apes?" ... if they believe in evolution, then theoretically we evolved from the same single-cell plasmoid... So why is there anything besides humans if we evolved from a shard of bacterium? I'm not sure, exactly, what this has to do at all with the post. I'll think of something later and post it immediately.
Dexter345 677 posts 02-28-03 06:55 Reply	Okay, I will once again try to explain the current theory of evolution. Supposedly, it all started with some kind of bacteria. This bacteria grew and reproduced and moved around. Then, by some freak DNA accident, some of the bacteria over in area A mutated into a certain type of protist, which bacteria in area B mutated into a different type of protist, and then over in area C, no mutation occurred at all. Flash forward to the beginning of homo sapiens. We and apes supposedly evolved from the same organism. Why did we not all evolve identically? The explanation for this is said to be in migration, as with the bacteria before. Some of the missing links went east and some went west. The ones that went east evolved into humans and the ones that went west evolved into apes. Please make a note that I am merely clarify the theory and I am not an expert in the field nor do I necessarily believe in macroevolution. Too many people ask questions like, "then why are there still apes," so I just wanted to give people the [relatively logical] explanation that our Biology class was given when somebody asked that very question. -Dexter345-
Nigrud J 48 posts 02-28-03 12:47 Reply	In other words, organisms are not all the same because the environments in which they live are different. Also, humans cannot be the only species in existence because humans depend on other species. Heterotrophs (organisms that do not make their own food, such as animals) are directly or indirectly fed by autotrophs (organism that make their own food, such as plants). A good introduction to evolution can be found at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html
Xathien 1255 posts 02-28-03 19:49 Reply	Of course, I was just proving that statement extremely stupid.
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 02-28-03 22:43 Reply	Well, I look at it this way. On one side, we have people saying that man evolved from apes. On the other, we have people saying that God created us. Hmm... Created by God, or evolved from apes... I don't know about you, but I'll take being created by God.
Dexter345 677 posts 03-03-03 02:36 Reply	Or... you could read my post again and then choose between being created by God or evolving from a lesser organism that is NOT an ape. You would probably still choose being created by God. That's kinda one thing that bugged me a while back. When members of a certain religion were attempting to convince me that they were right, they used the argument that their belief results in a much nicer outcome than mine. That is, they said, "But why would you believe that everything just ends when you could believe that you will live in happiness eternally after your death?" or something like that. It doesn't seem like people should make a rational choice on a matter that lies in faith. Yes, that does sound nicer. No, I still don't believe it. -Dexter345-

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