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Barrett 385 posts 05-04-03 19:45 Reply	ok, a better example of the 2 universe thingy. Imagine that just yesterday, someone invented a time machine and went 1 day into the future and figured out exactly what you would be doing that entire day, then he came back. So he knows what choices you will make. Does that mean that you are FORCED to make those choices? no, but you WILL. there is a difference between being FORCED to do something, and CHOOSING to do something that someone knows you will choose. It's not like there's some super force that will cause you to choose the decisions that the time-machine dude knows that you will choose - you just will [choose those things].
Mark 276 posts 05-04-03 20:10 Reply	So you're agreeing with AcDecMan, then? God's just a spectator and it doesn't matter whether He exists or not?
Barrett 385 posts 05-04-03 21:54 Reply	what the heck are you talking about psycho? when did i say that? i said God does not FORCE you to do anything. you people piss the crap out of me - stop putting words in my mouth for the sake of not loosing the argument. How many times has this debate's topic changed? no one has proven my original post wrong yet.
AcDecMan 111 posts 05-04-03 22:03 Reply	Wait, hold on, then Barrett, you aren't arguing with me, so either you are ranting about some random topic, or you are agreeing with me... And yes I have a very good grasp of the fourth dimension, but if you had a grasp of the fourth dimension, Mr. I-talk-big-and-try-to-add-theoretical-physics-like-I-really-know-it, you would realize that there are two theories that are simple notation or use of words...some people consider a fourth dimensional space to be one with time as the fourth, and others consider four dimensional space from a purely mathematical persepctive: they think of it as FOURTH DIMENSIONAL SPACE...FOUR COORDINATES...x, y, z, and u. Time is a dimension, but when some people like to suggest four dimensional space, they consider time to be an irrevalent factor added on in the end after all math is figured. If you read relativity adn other documents by Einstein, you wold have already known this. OHHHH, HOOO DAMN, you are wrong.
Barrett 385 posts 05-04-03 22:22 Reply	WHAT THE CRAP ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? HOW AM I WRONG? you see, you are putting words in my mouth yet again. I am not agreeing with you, again, i said "God does not FORCE you to do anything." You people are trying to tell me that right now I am being forced to type this while it is completely up to me. I worked it out in my mind that I want to type this sentence, so obviously there is free agency because the mind I am using is MY mind. And if you say "if there's free agency then God doesn't know everything" then I still think you're retarded. refer back to the time machine and 2 universe examples. He KNOWS the future, he doesn't control it. WE control it.
Barrett 385 posts 05-04-03 22:24 Reply	"So you're agreeing with AcDecMan, then? God's just a spectator and it doesn't matter whether He exists or not?" and if you're refering to that, i think you need to learn some common sense when debating. When did i say that, exactly? I was making an example of 2 universes and another example of a time machine. EXAMPLES. just 1 question: how old are you people?
Nigrud J 48 posts 05-05-03 01:34 Reply	I think that when Mark posted that it was directed at me, and no, I don't believe that God exists as a spectator. Now it is becoming apparent that Barrett and I are arguing about different things. By free will, I meant that a person's choices are not predetermined; he or she has more than one option, and there is no determined future because the person could choose different options. Barrett, however, seems to be arguing about the illusion of free will - people feel like they are making choices, but the future is already determined.
Barrett 385 posts 05-05-03 01:41 Reply	the future was predetermined based on what WE choose. As far as we are concerned, it has not been predetermined because we don't know the outcome. It has been predetermined based on the actions we take today-which sounds weird, but not really if you give it a lot of thought in the "as far as we are concerned" perspective.
Nigrud J 48 posts 05-05-03 02:02 Reply	"As far as we are concerned, it has not been predetermined because we don't know the outcome." We have the illusion of free will, which is why the future seems uncertain, even though it is determined if God knows the future. A similar situation is that of randomness. Although true randomness is impossible, numbers produced by random number generators seem random to people because people do not know the seed of the random number generator nor the algorithm it uses. Our knowledge of the certainty of the future does not affect whether the future is determined or not, so it is irrelevant.
AcDecMan 111 posts 05-05-03 02:11 Reply	"It's obvious that you guys are sticking to your 3 dimensional view of the universe as opposed to 4 dimensional (you obviously have no grasp of the 4th dimension, time - practice your thinking some more)" Barrett, I was referring to the comment up above. You can't be telling me or other people that they don't have a grasp on fourth-dimensional analysis if you don't, either. And you already know I am your age, Barrett.
Nigrud J 48 posts 05-05-03 02:17 Reply	My age is 459396956.
Barrett 385 posts 05-05-03 02:49 Reply	free-agnecy has nothing to do with whether or not the future is determined in God's mind. free-agency is the ability to choose, which we have. Don't tell me you are forced to act a certain way at all times. So you must agree with the fact that there is free agency. Now what you should probably be arguing against is an omniscient (sp?) God. Now pretend that he is omniscient for a second and you'll be arguing against free-agency - then refer back to my time machine example. When someone travels into time it doesn't mean what he witnesses was FORCED to take place. It means that it WILL take place, but the reason it will take place is because people WILL choose that path.
AcDecMan 111 posts 05-06-03 04:45 Reply	And people WILL choose the path because of free-agency or because of God?
Barrett 385 posts 05-06-03 13:14 Reply	free agency. what have i been saying the whole time? God does not force you to do anything. He knows what you will choose with your free agency.
Mark 276 posts 05-06-03 19:54 Reply	I was referring to Barrett when I made my earlier comment about God being a spectator. What I meant was, if we are allowed to choose everything in life, and if God doesn't interfere with those choices, then what do you believe is the point of God, Barrett? I'm simply trying to make you think. You know the answer. Show everyone who doesn't believe you what you're fighting for.
Barrett 385 posts 05-06-03 20:21 Reply	what is the point of God????!?!?! the real question you should be asking is "what is the point of us?" God created us. I happen to think about these things a lot deeper and a lot farther than most of you. God does not force us to do anything, but he reveals his secrets unto the prophets, and even we can recieve personal revelation (not necessarily visions). But God does not force us, he watches us make the choices he knows we will make. God plays a major part in this world, so he is not a spectator.
Mark 276 posts 05-07-03 00:52 Reply	Now take it a step further; if God knows what effect everything He tells us will have on us, isn't He controlling us? By the way, I believe you missed the point of my last post.
AcDecMan 111 posts 05-07-03 01:53 Reply	You seriously need to tone down such comments as "I am obviously able to think deeper than you guys are" or whatnot. To be honest, you are mormon, so all your deep thinking powers are thus extinguished.
Barrett 385 posts 05-07-03 02:06 Reply	"Now take it a step further; if God knows what effect everything He tells us will have on us, isn't He controlling us?" no. how is that controlling us? an effect is not controlling. Every time he interacts it helps us. Use your common sense here, buddy. Controlling us would mean we have to do EVERYTHING he wants us to do. He still lets us decide. AcDecMan - shutup.
Nigrud J 48 posts 05-07-03 02:59 Reply	Free will/agency is the opposite of determinism. This means that by definition, if free will/agency exist, the future is not determined, and therefore God is not omniscient. The reverse of this is also true. If God is omniscient, the future is determined, and therefore free will/agency does not exist. A few definitions: free will - freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention (m-w.com). free agency - the capacity or power of choosing or acting freely, or without necessity or constraint upon the will (dictionary.com). determinism - a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws (m-w.com).
Barrett 385 posts 05-07-03 04:13 Reply	"Free will/agency is the opposite of determinism. This means that by definition, if free will/agency exist, the future is not determined, and therefore God is not omniscient. " no it's not the opposite, buddy. Free agency is the opposite of being FORCED to do stuff. "The reverse of this is also true. If God is omniscient, the future is determined, and therefore free will/agency does not exist. " yes, the future is determined in God's mind. "A few definitions: free will - freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention (m-w.com). " i like how you add your own little clauses to your definitions. Free agency is the ability to choose. Period. "free agency - the capacity or power of choosing or acting freely, or without necessity or constraint upon the will (dictionary.com). " yep, we act freely, we are not forced to do anything. "determinism - a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws (m-w.com)." yes, determined does not mean "is forced to be this way" This is all you need to understand: God lets us choose our path. God knows us so well that he knows what we will choose. He does not force us to do what he knows we will choose because we will end up choosing it anyway. How old are you?
Dexter345 677 posts 05-07-03 07:06 Reply	Seriously, Barrett, aside from bashing Mormons as a whole, I agree with AcDecMan. You need to chill out with the whole "you do not possess the critical thinking skills that I do" and the "how old are you?" thing. Don't patronize people. You're no better than anything else. With that said, I'd like to say that both sides of this arguments make good points, but what you say seems valid to me. What made the most sense was the time machine analogy. I think where you guys are getting bogged down is just the words. To use your analogy, let's say I go forward in time and see that you eat Food A for breakfast, talk to Person X, and discuss Topic Alpha on this forum. I know that you WILL do these things, but I know that you COULD do other things if you wanted to. I know it's weird for me to side with a religious person on religious matters, but that makes perfect sense to me. -Dexter345-
Barrett 385 posts 05-07-03 19:30 Reply	thanks dexter, i'm just angry at these few people because they continually change their argument. All they're doing right now is making up their own definition for the free agency. If free agency is what they say it is, then trying to prove it wrong is pointless because what i believe is not what mark's most recent self definition was.
Barrett 385 posts 05-07-03 19:31 Reply	sorry i didn't mean mark, i meant nigrud or whatever
AcDecMan 111 posts 05-08-03 02:09 Reply	yay... Argument One: Standstill Argument Two: Standstill Argument Three (free agency): Tie because of confusion... Argument Four: Your turn, Barrett.

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