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Barrett 385 posts 04-19-03 03:10 Reply	his comments aren't arguments - they're "suspicion". Nothing that he has said has contained any proof. You have yet to tell me why my original comment is not proof.
AcDecMan 111 posts 04-20-03 01:17 Reply	I personally never considered any form of proof for religion at all convincing, so I'm with darren on this. But, I have no initiative to prove you wrong or right. I jsut don't think religion is all that its cracked up to be. that's all.
Barrett 385 posts 04-20-03 06:19 Reply	so your solution is... "as long as i think it's bullcrap, it doesn't effect me, so i won't consider the possibility that there's more to the universe than i know about already."...?
AcDecMan 111 posts 04-20-03 06:52 Reply	Hahahahahaha...yes, religion is bullcrap. You hit it on the spot, bullseye. And do I know everything about the universe? nope. Do I give a shit? Nope. I only care about the theoretical physics aspect of it and the mental aspect of it and the political aspect of it and the philosophical aspect of it. Thats all. My reasons are my reasons. Actually...my reasons are MY RELIGION. So, actually, all religion is not bullcrap, all religion except mine is bullcrap. So, if you bad mouth my religion, i will accuse you of saying "religion is bullcrap". So don't talk crap about my religion, please.
Dexter345 677 posts 04-21-03 02:09 Reply	Barrett, I may not have proven you wrong, but as I said before, you have not proven your own words right. I know that you will now say, "How have I not proven myself right?" and I will tell you to scroll up and read what I've been saying. What you have is not proof. It's neat, it's slightly convincing (as can be seen by how many Mormons there are), but it is certainly not proof. Harbster, thank you. -Dexter345-
Barrett 385 posts 04-21-03 03:29 Reply	the first few times you replied you did not understand the entire situation (these cities do, actually have names). The 2nd time you tried to counter it you or someone else had that coin example - ok, so we'll divide that number i had, something like 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 by the approximate number of self-proclaimed prophets there are on the planet; heck, we'll divide it by 100 billion - more than the number of people who have ever lived.... that gives us... hmmm..... 10000000000000000000000000000000..... so the chances of that EVER happening are 1 in every 1 x10^31.... are you sure i haven't proven any points?
AcDecMan 111 posts 04-21-03 03:29 Reply	Anyday
Barrett 385 posts 04-21-03 03:38 Reply	and then we'll divide that by the ratio of words that make sense to words that don't make sense - something like 1/1000000000... yeah, 1 out of every billion sounds nice.... no? ok, 1 out of every trillion.... which gives us 1x10^19 or so....
MpXnpio 2 posts 04-22-03 06:27 Reply	Hey guys, I just found this platinum book covered in gems and other nice crap in my yard. Ummm, it told me some stuff like that there is going to be a war in the cradle of civilization. Pretty crazy, huh? It also said that the sky is going to turn purple and animals are all going to start talking, but it didn't say when... I guess it has to happen eventually right? So therefore it must be the truth. It also mentioned that George Bush was going to take over half the world, then weasel his way into a third term, and become a dictator. That's kinda dumb though, so I think I'll just ignore that part... unless of course it comes true, then I'll just put it back in and pretend it was always there. Anyway, I was thinking of trying to start a club of some sort, like a cult or something, where people follow me and whatever I write about and stuff. I'm going to branch off of Christianity though, and just add that to this stuff on the platinum thing (by the way, I lost it... I'll just pretend God took it from me). That way I don't have to worry about having reliability because Christianity has no fallacies. Good idea, huh? I was just wondering if you guys want to join with me. OH, I have an idea!!!! If you help me, I promise you can become Godlike!!! Actually, I'll just tell everyone that, then I'll get lots of members. It's going to be totally awesome, I promise. I mean come on, what else are you going to do with your time?
Dexter345 677 posts 04-22-03 14:07 Reply	That sounds pretty rockin'. Barrett, the coin analogy was for somebody else, I think it was burr. But anyway, you have provided some numbers that seem pretty nice. But everybody else has their own numbers that support their own ideas. And unless you get the probability to 0 that it could not have happened (legitimately) you have not proven anything. I reiterate: you do not understand the word proof. -Dexter345-
Xathien 1255 posts 04-22-03 21:12 Reply	God says your religion is wrong, Mp.
Barrett 385 posts 04-22-03 21:39 Reply	MpXnpio - your analogy doesn't work too well. And you're assuming that just because they didn't include the civil war in certain texts until the civil war was about to happen again is because they were afraid it wasn't gonna happen. That's not necessarily true; and even if it is, that's because the HUMANS who are not perfect didn't have a perfect faith of that prophesy, or maybe they thought it was so distant in the future that they didn't think it was too important until they realized it was coming sooner than they thought. the bible and book of mormon coincide - it's completely logical for us to have a book of the history of the americas. Which is where the PRAYING thing comes in. One cannot be converted by the facts alone (as i believe you 4 or 5 have proven pretty clearly) - Read "Joseph Smith's" book with an open mind, then pray about it and ask God to tell you if it's right or wrong (assuming you believe in God?) - and then I'll read your book then pray to God and ask if it's right or wrong. Read the Book of Mormon - it can't hurt. If you still think it's bullcrap and still think that it was completely fabricated by a young adult with 3 years of education then I know you have problems. And if you still don't believe it's scripture, tell me what it IS instead of giving me all this anti-mormon bullcrap.
Barrett 385 posts 04-22-03 23:01 Reply	1/1000000000000000000000000000000000 is zero when it comes to chance; believe me. Unless you're talking about subatomic particles colliding with stuff, it's just not gonna happen. Put yourself in this situation: a total stranger just made up a word that's not in any dictionary, your goal is to guess the word. And then after that, the stranger gets to put the word anywhere on the planet - then you have to guess where he put it. Both in ONE guess. And then, do it 1 more time. And adding to the reply for MpXnpio - That's the most common argument used against us - "well obviously he'll say that happened to cover it up - everything about your religion being founded is ridiculous"... ever think that maybe the exact same thing would happen if he was telling the truth? yes - especially in this case. Also, keep in mind - 15 people saw the plates, and they never EVER denied it, even when they thought Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet (several of them thought that). And about your "i'll make you like a god" bull - People are not going to join a church unless they believe it's true. They either believe it, or they think he's lying. No amount of afterlife promises will make someone believe it. With the amount of education Joseph had, if he made it up, he probably would have said it was written in english. HE WOULD NEVER HAVE MADE IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. Why would he do something like that? eventually it got him killed. He was tarred and feathered, the church got driven accross the country by mobs of anti-mormons who KILLED mormons on sight (there was even a law made by some governor that you were allowed to kill one on sight) - Do you think the prophet would let that happen? heck no, if you read the bio's on these people, they were the nicest most honest people on the planet - they did everything to help other people. Have you seen interviews with the current prophet? He knows whether or not the church is true; if you see an interview, tell me what he believes. If he knows it's NOT true, he would have told us that the second he became an apostle (apostles are also prophets to a lesser extent). He's 93 or so years old - someone that old is mature enough to tell the truth, and that's exactly what he does. Sorry, the more i talk the more you criticize me, so I hope you open your mind, and do something about this that won't hurt you at all; read The Book of Mormon and pray for yourself for an answer(if you're christian that shouldn't be too hard on your pride).
burr 87 posts 04-22-03 23:42 Reply	"MpXnpio - your analogy doesn't work too well. And you're assuming that just because they didn't include the civil war in certain texts until the civil war was about to happen again is because they were afraid it wasn't gonna happen. That's not necessarily true; and even if it is, that's because the HUMANS who are not perfect didn't have a perfect faith of that prophesy, or maybe they thought it was so distant in the future that they didn't think it was too important until they realized it was coming sooner than they thought." [NOTE: quoted from Barrett's post] Barrett the thing I would like to know is how can you put your faith in a fellow human being who is made up of the same flesh and blood that you and I are made of? On the same note, the whole basis for the Mormon faith is in what one carnal man did (Joseph Smith). Now if Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God then when he gives a prophecy it should coincide with other prophecies of past prophets of God (Isaiah, Hosea, Jesus, etc.) and it should always come true. We see in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, which says, "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.", that if ONE prophesy that is given in God's name does not come to pass or come true then the person who is supposedly speaking for God is really not a true prophet of God. It is really simple concept. By applying this to Joseph Smith we can see he is not a true prophet of God. Although he may be right on a few things, hardly any of the prophecies he gave came true. Case closed!
Barrett 385 posts 04-23-03 00:19 Reply	case closed? which prophesies didn't come true, buddy? i'd like to see these. And don't give me any that refer to the last days, because the last last days have yet to come to pass. >>Barrett the thing I would like to know is how can you put your faith in a fellow human being who is made up of the same flesh and blood that you and I are made of? THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I'M TELLING YOU TO PRAY ABOUT IT GENIUS. gosh, you don't listen to anything. Please provide backup to what you say instead of saying what you WANT to be true but isn't.
Newbie 2 posts 04-23-03 00:37 Reply	Hi, i've never posted here before, but i find this topic quite interesting and have been keeping up on it. when i read barret's first post i got very interested in the mormon church and then when the discussion went further suggesting that everyone should read the book of mormon for themselves i ask my mormon friend for one and sure enough, he had one in his backpack. i have yet to get thru 2 nephi but i can already tell you that it is an incredible book very similar to the bible. my mormon friend then invited me to his church this sunday and i plan on going with him even though my parents dont want me to, in fact they said id be grounded if i go, but they also said its my decision and they wont physically stop me. the comments you have come up with against the mormons have almost all been baseless and barret has countered all of the ones that make some sort of sense and barret makes a good point about the 'of course that would have happened if he was lying' idea. anyway, im still not sure about mormonism, so dont think im supporting them yet, but im gonna find out for myself in due time and ill report back after this sunday (if i remember). and yes, i highly recomend you who are so convinced that its nonsense to read the book of mormon, so far for me its a great book and i dont think 1 uneducated man (as barret said) could ever in his lifetime write this, and i dont even think an educated man could write it. but ill decide that when im done reading and praying (im currently catholic so i have no pride issues with praying about it. God will not punish me for looking into other religions especially if i ask about it)
burr 87 posts 04-23-03 01:56 Reply	Though there are many false prophesies of Joseph Smith, I will just list two simple ones that everyone can understand. The thing to remember is that according to Deuteronomy 18:20-22 just one false prophecy makes someone a false prophet. 1) THE ABRIDGEMENT OF D&C 137 In 1976, the 137th section of Doctrine & Covenants (D&C) was submitted to the general conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a vote to be "sustained" as scripture. It is a narrative of a vision supposedly seen by Joseph Smith in Kirtland, OH in 1836. What the members who voted on this new addition to scripture were not told by "the Brethren," is that whole paragraphs (216 words) of the actual revelation as recorded in The History Of The Church had been conveniently left out of the version to be included in the D&C. The reason for these omissions was that four obviously false prophecies were contained in the part of the revelation which was censored out. These were prophecies so obviously false that even the average LDS reader would pick them up. Therefore they went down the "black hole" of Mormon history. What exactly were in these missing parts? Well, if you go to the official history of the LDS church published by the church's own publishing company, you will be easily able to find the missing prophecies. Here is what is not in the new D&C 137: [Joseph Smith:] "....I saw the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, who are now upon the earth, who hold the keys of this last ministry, in foreign lands, standing together in a circle, much fatigued, with their clothes tattered and their feet swollen, with their eyes cast downward, and Jesus standing in their midst, and they did not behold him. The Saviour looked upon them and wept. I also beheld Elder M'Lellin"ElderMíLellin" in the south, standing upon a hill, surrounded by a vast multitude, preaching to them, and a lame man standing before him supported by his crutches; he threw them down at his word and leaped as a hart, by the mighty power of God. Also, I saw Elder Brigham Young standing in a strange land, in the far south and west, in a desert place, upon a rock in the midst of a bout a dozen men of color, who appeared hostile. He was preaching to them in their own tongue, and the angel of God standing above his head with a drawn sword in his hand, protecting him, but he did not see it. And I finally saw the Twelve in the celestial kingdom of God. I also beheld the redemption of Zion and many things which the tongue of man cannot describe in full" Now, if this were true, it was a truly inspiring and wonderful declaration! Unfortunately, for the LDS faithful, a short look at the official history of the church reveals the false prophecies contained therein. First of all, Smith claimed to see his (original LDS) Twelve apostles all in the celestial kingdom. This is difficult to imagine, since there was already division between Smith and the majority of the Apostles, beginning with discord in Kirtland, Ohio. The first portion of the "missing words" shows his less than subtle rebuke of their resistance to his will. "...fatigued....tattered...eyes cast downward....The Saviour looked upon them and wept." Smith was calling them to get into line and submit themselves to his full authority. That's the carrot offered in the last portion, "I finally saw the Twelve in the Celestial Kingdom of God." However, his "thus saith the Lord" must have had little effect on them, since at least seven of the twelve under discussion were soon excommunicated or apostasized from the church: John F. Boynton & Luke S. Johnson (1837), Lyman Johnson (1838), William E. M'Lellin (c.1838), Thomas B. Marsh & Orson Hyde (1838), and William Smith (1845) How could they have ever attained the celestial kingdom under those conditions? They couldn't! They were not only accursed by their very acts of apostacy or excommunication, but fell victim to the LDS Church's own scriptural denunciation. D&C 84.40-41 clearly states: "Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved. But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth there-from, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come." Although a few of these men later returned to the church, none of them were even close to the standards necessary for attainment of that highest degree of glory. The majority remained apart for life. Therefore, the prophetic utterance, "I finally saw the Twelve in the Celestial Kingdom of God." was obviously false. It would have been false even if only one Apostle remained outside the fold. Second, the vision of M'Lellin preaching and working miracles in the south never came true because he apostasized from the church without ever doing it! (see above). Third, Although Brigham Young did bring the Mormons west and was a great colonizer and orator, the vision of Brigham Young preaching to "men of color" in their own language, in some strange and faraway place in the southwest never took place either; or at least there is no trace of it in the very detailed records and diaries concerning his reign as prophet. Finally, "Zion (Independence, MO.) was never redeemed, has never been redeemed in the 150+ years since the prophecy was made. Is it any wonder that the Brethren chose to remove whole chunks of this "inspired" revelation? Four false prophecies for the price of one! 2) THE UNITED ORDER In D&C 104.1 (1834) a prophecy is given concerning the LDS institution, the "United Order -(a theocratic, communistic method of distributing and controlling property and goods): "…I give unto you counsel and a commandment, concerning all the properties which belong to the order which I commanded to be organized and established, to be a united order, and an everlasting order for the benefit of my church, and for the salvation of men until I come..." LDS history reveals that this "everlasting" order had to be disbanded soon after because it failed. It is obvious that today Mormons do not practice a communal approach to property. If anything, they are in favor of capitalism and against communism. This is one of the most blatantly false prophecies of Joseph Smith. [NOTE: most of the information comes from Ed Decker}
Dexter345 677 posts 04-23-03 08:41 Reply	Once again, Barrett, you're biasing the probabilities. Have a person make up a word that's not in any dictionary, and have me try to guess it in one try, and I'd say that the chances of me getting it right are very close to zero. BUT 1. The word "bountiful" IS in dictionaries. 2. He got many more tries than just the two for the two city names. How many lost cities that have not been found did he describe again? -Dexter345-
Newbie 2 posts 04-23-03 20:01 Reply	burr, i still don't understand how those are false prophesies. 1.)We believe you can redeem yourself in the afterlife. the fact that he said their clothes were all messed up proves my point even more. it was a struggle for them to get there and they made mistakes - like you said many came back. 2.) no record doesn't mean it didn't happen. 3.) no record of brigham young talking to colored people doesn't mean it didn't happen. 4.) Zion is not refering to that little city as far as i can tell. Zion is a BIG word that is used EVERYWHERE. Zion national park, etc... but more importantly, as you read in our articles of faith "that zion, the new jerusalem will be built upon the american continent". Zion refers to the church itself - which has been redeemed since Jesus' apostles died. We still pay tithing - we still pay fast offerings - we pay funds upon funds. It has not died - it has changed in form however. We are encouraged to give all that we can spare to the church, and a lot of us do. Paying all the funds we do sounds a lot more socialistic than capitalistic. - and no, it was not communism. you got however much you wanted to have and just gave the rest back in the pot for others. And please, continue your "many untrue prophesies". Newbie - good job, at least someone here isn't so prideful that all they do to try to prove me wrong is look at anti-mormon websites. How long did that take you to copy and paste bur? Dexter, Nahom is not in any dictionary that Joseph had, in fact the chances of Joseph even having a dictionary is almost zero, so i still don't think he had ever heard the word bountiful. I'm not biasing the numbers - remember how low i went for you? even when i went your way millions of times over it's still 10^19!!!!! use your head, please, no one just guesses. You're never gonna convince me that he can just guess those.
Barrett 385 posts 04-24-03 00:55 Reply	gosh stupid kid - newbie is my friend, he didn't want to say so because of the crap i might get about it. He used my computer yesterday to post his deal; i showed him the thread when he came to my house last week and i never re-logged in.
Barrett 385 posts 04-24-03 00:57 Reply	LOL!!!! and you'll NEVER believe me now. oh well, fine. believe that i am newbie (my close non-mormon friend as a matter of fact, you can call him up - email me for the number), but if that's not enough, just get it through your mind that there are people like him who go through that same conversion process. and it happend 300,000 times last year alone!
Barrett 385 posts 04-24-03 01:01 Reply	and there's another example of "what bullcrap - of course that would happen if he's lying" - the way gunther found this site was because i pointed it out to him, so the EXACT same thing would have happened if i was telling the truth. - apply that to Joseph Smith's story and don't give me any more sarcastic posts because it's NOT a valid argument
Dexter345 677 posts 04-24-03 01:23 Reply	I figured you'd bring up Nahom. I was going to tell you not to bother, because I already know. Oh well. Again, nobody cares how many people you converted last year. It proves nothing other than the fact that you guys are very experienced in presenting your religion to people and having them believe it. And finally, I'd just like to reiterate that him getting the names of some cities right does not prove anything. Maybe God told him through those golden plates. Maybe he was a psychic. Maybe it was a wild guess. Maybe God was playing a trick (this of course would not be the traditional Christian God) because he thought it would be funny. Maybe our lives are much like the Matrix, and the machines put that information into him. Maybe a whole lot of other possibilities that may or may not have anything to do with God. -Dexter345-
Barrett 385 posts 04-24-03 01:34 Reply	fine; if you're agnostic to that extent and believe anything is possible, then i guess it could be like the matrix - but think that through. For all you christians out there - there's the proof. I'm used to presenting my religion to christians because most people i know are christian. You dexter are a much better thinker than burr, but i also suggest that you read The Book of Mormon; and be open minded about it (since you still consider it a possibility, why not?) - it's not that long compared to your average highschool history book, so no matter what you'll know more about my church and be able to hold up a better argument about it (for, or against). That's all i can say to you from now on - read the book of mormon, and then me and Dexter can stop arguing, and i can concentrate on burr's misguided information.
Dexter345 677 posts 04-24-03 02:18 Reply	I am considering taking a Western Religion course when I go to college next year. Although I am currently without religion, I enjoy learning about them. Perhaps I will read the Book of Mormon then. -Dexter345-

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