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Dexter345 677 posts 04-08-03 01:35 Reply	1. You said the names of the cities were lost. How could we prove that those were the names of the cities? 2. I could say that there used to be a city someplace near Mesopotamia (or wherever) and I just might be right. 3. By describing what the city was like, you said that he described it as being fertile land. Holy crap, that is a stunning revelation, especially if the cities I'm naming happen to be in the area called the Fertile Crescent. Now, I hope you don't think that I hate Mormons/Mormonism. I disagree with you just about as much as I disagree with other Christians, with Jews, with Muslims, with Buddhists, and with Hindus. I don't call Mormonism a cult. It's a religion just like all of these other ridiculous things. And no, I haven't read the Book of Mormon, and I don't ever plan to. I'm keeping an open mind here on this forum (or at least I try), but I'm not going to go out of my way to become a part of a random religion. Now, when I say random, I only mean that there would be no way for me to choose what is the right way to go, without some sort of prior knowledge. That'd be what this forum is for. Lastly, I don't think anybody cares how many people were converted to Mormonism. That doesn't make the religion any more or less credible. It just shows that at least your missions are being put to good* use. -Dexter345- *Good for the church and the converted people, not for people who would rather not be disturbed in their homes by people trying to impress religion upon them.
Barrett 385 posts 04-08-03 02:03 Reply	you don't understand, and i can see where you're getting the "coincidence" from. These locations themselves were lost. And when they were discovered, they did have the names visible on rocks and such. And don't call religion crap, please. The fact that you think you understand the entire universe based on your limited perspective makes you very ignorant. I invite you to read the Book of Mormon before you make any more judgements on my religion, such as "crap."
Dexter345 677 posts 04-08-03 02:13 Reply	I invite you to inform me on how exacty you got the idea that I said, "Your religion is crap." I've read my post over, and nowhere do I say that. I did, however, say "Holy crap." That could have been substituted for "Oh wow," or "Whoop-de-doo," or some other sarcastic exclamation. I did NOT say, "Your religion is a bunch of holy crap." With that out of the way, I must say that I still am unimpressed with your so-called proof. -Dexter345-
Barrett 385 posts 04-08-03 02:17 Reply	The way you describe religion in general is basically saying it's crap. Sorry for putting it in quotes. And please, explain to me how that's not proof. Lost cities, named in America before they were discovered again, discovered, same name, same description, same location.
Dexter345 677 posts 04-08-03 02:37 Reply	I still contest that such a coincidence is plausable. But even IF the descriptions of the cities were given by God through a prophet (or whatever), it is still unsound to go through these steps: 1. Guy was right about lost cities. 2. Therefore, guy is right about everything. 3. Therefore, Mormonism is the right religion. That there... That's not a proof. And correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be the logic that you go through. -Dexter345-
burr 87 posts 04-08-03 02:39 Reply	Holy Catholic Church can answer your question pretty well, probably even better than Mormonism.
burr 87 posts 04-08-03 02:47 Reply	By the way, my last post is referring to Barret's question "How can 1 church with such strict beliefs be so successful?". What I mean by my statement is that the Catholic Church is just as successful or more than the Mormons and they are very strict. What makes them so successful, I don't know. I presume that is probably the same thing that attracts people to Mormonism.
Barrett 385 posts 04-08-03 03:48 Reply	you're right dexter, but yes, it is proof. you have to learn how all of this came about. People who are not mormon believe that Joseph Smith made it all up from his head. That is the only explanation anyone can come up with (and believe me, there are plenty of anti-mormons who spend a lot of time trying to prove it wrong). He actually translated it from gold plates he found under a rock in a hill burried 1500 years ago so that one day the history of what went on in the Americas would be found. And speaking of trying to prove it wrong... you know how they found out who wrote the articles of confederation (or something like that, what did Madison write?) - they ran it through a computer and matched up the writings with samples. They tried to do the same thing with the book of mormon and prove that 1 person wrote the whole thing, but they accidentally proved that it was written by at least 24 different people, and the chances of Joseph Smith writing the entire thing was over 1 trillion to 1. Keep in mind they were trying to prove the opposite, so the results are not twisted for my benefit. sorry burr, the catholic church has been around for a few thousand more years... the Mormon church is the fastest growing church on the planet.
Dexter345 677 posts 04-08-03 07:21 Reply	Now I'm curious. Where did he find these gold plates? -Dexter345-
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-08-03 12:32 Reply	He found the gold plates on a hill side near his home. But an angel of the Lord has taken them, so don't get any ideas of going and getting them. Anyway, someone else already would have by now if they were still around. Something else with the Catholic church is that it's not like Christ's church in the bible. The Mormon church is. i.e. Catholic church has a pope, the Mormon church has a prophet. Catholic church has bishops and cardinals, etc. The Mormon church has apostles. Would anyone like to explain this one?
burr 87 posts 04-08-03 19:55 Reply	Which Bible tells you that information about the Catholic Church and Mormonism?
Barrett 385 posts 04-08-03 21:26 Reply	the one that says there were apostles and prophets. _all of them_
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-08-03 22:18 Reply	No bible told me that about the Catholic and Mormon churches. I was referring to them as they are today. The fact that Jesus' church has apostles and prophets came from the bible, in the New Testament.
Dexter345 677 posts 04-09-03 08:07 Reply	I just wanted to know where he found them, like, in the world. North America? So some gold plates were buried in North America back when only the Native Americans lived here? And the plates weren't given to a museum, but rather, they were magically taken away? I have to say that for a while it seemed as though you may have had some thought-provoking evidence there, but the rest of the story kinda ruined that. -Dexter345-
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-09-03 12:21 Reply	Yeah, they were found in North America. They were buried around A.D. 430 or so.
Barrett 385 posts 04-09-03 15:02 Reply	imagine what would happen if they were not taken away. They would be the most sought after object in the world and would be tampered, stolen, changed, and eventually used against the church after they've been screwed up. Just because something seems like it's what would have been done if it's false doesn't mean that that exact same thing wouldn't happen if it's true.
Xathien 1255 posts 04-10-03 01:31 Reply	Of course. There's definitely something wrong with God taking his sacred plates away. However, the world being spawned from nothingness makes perfect sense. You people's logic confuses me.
Barrett 385 posts 04-10-03 02:50 Reply	what's wrong with God taking the plates away? Why don't you read the BOM and pray to God about it and he'll tell you if he took them away or not.
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-10-03 03:01 Reply	He already has. Xathien is a friend of mine from school and has helped in a different religious debate. (Remember the one from tinews?)
Barrett 385 posts 04-10-03 04:34 Reply	oh, i was actually just posting that as a general reply to all of the people who say "that's crazy"...
Dexter345 677 posts 04-10-03 05:28 Reply	And "everybody's" response would be this: Why just read the Book of Mormon and pray to God? Why not read the King James Bible and pray to God? Why not read the Koran and pray to Allah? Why not simply meditate on it? Why is it that you believe that the Book of Mormon is THE way to get answers? -Dexter345-
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-10-03 12:38 Reply	Because the Boook of Mormon is the most correct book on the planet. And it also says that after you have read it you should pray to God if it's true or not. Where in the bible or Koran or where ever does it say you should pray to God after reading it? I have read the Book of Mormon, and prayed about it. It's true.
burr 87 posts 04-10-03 21:07 Reply	Wasn't Joseph Smith a mason when he found the BOM? Also, didn't Joseph Smith use a steer stone for finding the BOM, something masons use?
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-10-03 23:34 Reply	Joseph Smith was fourteen years old when he found the gold plates that the Book of Mormon was translated from. He was able to find them through direction of a Heavenly messenger, not some stone(s). He was also the son of a farmer, and helped his father around the family farm. This link would also be worth reading: http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1
Xathien 1255 posts 04-10-03 23:37 Reply	Moroni 10:4-5

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