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Barrett 385 posts 03-26-03 23:59 Reply	If all of the evidence that supports the Mormon church came out today, there would be mass conversions. But since it all came out over a space of 170 years (and still coming out), people don't really think about it. Here's a little section of a pdf file i found on the internet a while ago (it IS credible, none of it is false OR misleading): 6 Have the ruined cities been found? The Book of Mormon has been even more successful in this area than Bible archeology. To see why, imagine a conversation between a critic of the Book of Mormon and a well informed student: Critic: Bible cities have been found, but Book of Mormon cities have not! Student: Hold on there. The Book of Mormon mentions Jerusalem and other cities, and these have been found! Critic: That’s cheating - Jerusalem was never lost. Student: Exactly! And most Bible cities were never lost either. The vast majority of Biblical sites were “discovered” because the old names were still there. The remainder were located simply by triangulation - for example, there is only one ruined site between A and B, so we assume it is the one the Bible says was between A and B. This says nothing about the Bible being inspired. Critic: But the fact is, all the sites have been found! Student: Have they? Despite being the most studied book in all the world, 45% of the place names are still lost -for example, there are twenty candidates for Mount Sinai. Critic: Well many were found anyway. Student: Even atheists accept that the Bible was written in the ancient Middle East, so of course the cities are there. What does it prove? On the other hand, the Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith, so if he finds even one single lost site we must conclude that he was either impossibly lucky or else he was inspired. Critic: O.K., name one site that Joseph Smith got right. Student: Nahom. Critic. Oh... O.K., so Joseph Smith was extremely lucky. Name another one. Student: Bountiful. Critic. Er - but those sites are in the Old World. What about the Americas? You would expect some of those sites to be found by now if they had cities like in the Bible. Student: OK, so 55% of Bible cities have been found, do you expect us to find 55% of Book of Mormon lands? Critic: Yes! Student: But far more people study the Holy land than study the ancient Americas, and they have a several hundred years head start. It wasn't until the 1850s that even one Old Testament name to be found outside the Bible.142 Critic: All right, but I’d still expect to find, say, 20% of your cities. Student: Even though the Americas are a hundred times bigger area to search? Critic: - O.K, but I’d still expect to find, say, 5% of those cities. Student: Yes, if the Americas were a nice dry desert like much of the Holy land, so remains coiuld be preserved... but much of the continent had humid forests Critic: Well I’d expect to find, say, 2% of your cities then. Student: Yes, if the archeologists had helpful early documents, like the Onamasticon of Eusebius (with its list of cities and distances betwen them), but they do not - partly because the Spanish conquerors deliberately destroyed the native books they found. Critic: Er - but if you tried hard you’d have a fair idea of, maybe 1%... Student: If many of the original names survived, which they do not... Critic: Well O.K., but I’d still expect a guess at that 1%... Student: Yes, if there was some kind of inscriptions on the ruins that are found from the early (pre-Classic) period, but most ruins from that period are silent... Critic: Er... well I’d still expect maybe a wild guess at the 1% ... Student: Actually, we can do a lot better than a wild guess! There is good evidence for identifying the city of the Jaredite king Lib,143 the river Sidon, Zarahemla, Helam, Lehi-Nephi, etc. with archaeological sites. Even when the Book of Mormon seems to get it wrong, it turns out to be right - for example, the description of the "narrow neck of land" perfectly fits how the Nephites would have seen the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, yet is not how modern readers see it. Sometimes the presumed real world geography helps solve what otherwise seem to be problems in the text, such as the position of the city Aaron. Joseph Smith knew nothing of central America, but the authors of the Book of Mormon obviously knew a lot. The Quiche Maya claimed to come from a place in the East called Tulan (or Civan-Tulan). It is equivalent to the name Bountiful in English. They told the Europeans that it "bordered on Babylonia", just like Nephi's land of Bountiful in the Arabian peninsula. "Bountiful" may also have been the name for a Mesoamerican city known for its temples and libraries. There is a region in central America still referred to as the "Borders of the Sea", just as in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon city Sidom was probably near the modern archeological site of Zactan. And both words have the same root meaning - "lime". If you'd like the entire pdf, there's a lot more good stuff in there... But it'd probably suit you better to read The Book of Mormon, since it's a lot better to be converted by the spirit rather than by facts..
Barrett 385 posts 03-27-03 00:08 Reply	And just to clarify, Nahom and bountiful are mentioned in the Book of Mormon, which was translated during the early 1800's. Neither Nahom nor Bountiful were discovered until WELL after then. They were discovered right where they were described in the BOM. Nahom translates to "mourning", and there is a cemetary there - and this is where Ishmael was said to be buried. Bountiful was described in the BOM to be a very green place - this was ridiculed greatly because there is no greenery in that area... when this was discovered, it did, indeed have greenery, fruit, iron ore (Nephi built his boat here), and everything that should have been there.
burr 87 posts 03-27-03 02:40 Reply	These are some of the problems I have with Mormonism (otherwise known as LDS). [NOTE: the topics have the LDS's definition and then the Bible's definition.] BIBLE LDS - The Bible is correct only as far as it is correctly translated. It is basically trustworthy. It is the only one of the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) that is not considered infallible. Bible - the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God (2 Timothy 3:16). SALVATION LDS - Simple bodily resurrection. It does not simply mean forgiveness of sins. Jesus died for universal resurrection. Bible - Forgiveness of sins with the result of a present new life and in the future eternal life with God (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Rom. 6:23; Rom. 10:9-10). HEAVEN LDS - Divided into three Kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is for perfect Mormons, the Terrestrial is for moral people and lukewarm LDS, and the Telestial Kingdom is for everyone else. Bible - The dwelling place of God (1 Kings 8:30). Christians go to heaven. KINGDOM OF GOD LDS - Celestial heaven. Bible - All the believers of Christ (Matt. 13:41-43). HOLY GHOST LDS - "A spirit man. He can only be at one place at one time... " (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 359.) The Holy Ghost is contrasted with the Spirit of God which is the influence of the Godhead that fills the immensity of space which enables God to know what is going on. It is likened to electricity." Bible - Third person of the Trinity. Same as Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4). ETERNAL LIFE LDS - Exaltation (exaltation to a Mormon means obtaining Godhood) in the Celestial Kingdom. Bible - Forgiveness of sins and life eternal with God (John 17:3; Rom. 6:23). GODHEAD LDS - An office held by three separate Gods: the Father who is a god; Jesus who is a god; and the Holy Ghost who is a god. Bible - God Himself, not an office. Three persons in one God. A Trinity: The Father; the Son; and the Holy Spirit. JESUS LDS - Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. Bible - Jesus is God, second person of the Trinity (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). ATONEMENT LDS - The sacrifice of Christ that made resurrection possible along with the possibility of our earning forgiveness of sins. Bible - The substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. He died for our sins (1 Pet. 2:24; 1 John 2:2). PRE-EXISTENCE LDS - We existed in heaven with God our (literal) Father before we became human. Bible - We did not exist before we came to earth (1 Cor. 15:46). GOSPEL LDS - The laws and the ordinances of the Mormon church. Bible - The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for our sins (1 Cor. 15:1-4).
burr 87 posts 03-27-03 03:13 Reply	If you do not get what I am saying it is this: the Bible and the Mormons do not match.
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 03-27-03 04:36 Reply	1. Matt. 27:5 and Acts 1:18. 2. I believe that if you looked up the definition on the Plan of Salvation, it would clear things up. 3. 1 Cor. 15:39-41. (If you'd like more info, let me know.) 4. Mark 10:14-15, Luke 18:16-17. 5. Doctrine & Convenants 130:22; 8:2; 84:27; John 14:17. 6. Eternal Life means just that, life for eternity. 7. John 17:11-23. 8. Jesus is our Savior. 9. The Atonement was where Jesus suffered the price for our sins, while his death and resurrection were so we could be resurrected as well. 10. Jeremiah 1:4-5, Job 1:6, Titus 1:1-2. 11. The everlasting Gospel is glad tidings of great joy. D&C 128:19. How don't we match?
Dexter345 677 posts 03-27-03 06:25 Reply	Proof...? What proof? All that was was excuses why you can't prove anything and then two correct cities. It also does not seem too difficult to say that land is fertile around a place. That gives kinda a 50/50 chance. At any rate, I see no proof whatsoever of anything. But then again, I didn't really expect to... -Dexter345-
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 03-27-03 13:16 Reply	Hey Barrett, where'd you find that pdf? I'd like to have a look at it.
Barrett 385 posts 03-31-03 21:11 Reply	emailed the PDF. btw, how can that NOT be proof? think about it: The Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith in the early 1800's. You claim that he made the whole thing up in his head. Nahom and Bountiful were unknown to ANYONE in the world until much later. So how did Joseph Smith know? And yes, there is a marker in the place that says that the place is called "Nahom". Why don't you explain to me what IS going on here and not what is not going on here? If that's not true then what is? and btw, the first guy with all the numbered things - you're a good guy for actually looking those up in your anti-mormon stuff (as opposed to just saying "no") - but all of that is misleading. I'd have to get into a long discussion about it, but Jeremiah did a good job with those scripture references.
Barrett 385 posts 03-31-03 21:30 Reply	BIBLE - that is correct. It has not been perfectly translated, which is why Joseph Smith did his translation of it (by revelation) - and that is one of the reasons that we have more scripture to tie up any loose ends. SALVATION - sure, you have to work for eternal life with god (faith and works), but resurection is free. HEAVEN - I don't see any contradiction here... KINGDOM OF GOD - is celestial heaven where God is... HOLY GHOST - The only contradiction which you falsely make is the trinity. Show me a reference in the bible to trinity and i'll explain what's really being said and give you several other references to 3 SEPERATE and distinct beings. (yes, it is said "we are one" - as opposed to Zeus and the God of rain - they are one with purpose. how can someone who is the same person be standing to the right hand of himself? answer: they are different beings - how can the holy ghost descent as a dove while he's being baptised by John? exactly.) ETERNAL LIFE - both are correct... no contradiction here. GODHEAD - again, where in the bible does it say they are the same being? it doesn't. You're comparing religions here, not the bible. JESUS - Trinity again. Do you realize that trinity was invented by the Romans in like AD 500? How many references are there to prayer by Jesus? WHO WAS HE PRAYING TO??? ATONEMENT - no contradiction, again. PRE-EXISTENCE - the Corinth. reference refers to our bodies, which did not exist until we were born. GOSPEL - wow. Gospel = "Good News" (or something). The fact that Jesus did all of those things IS good news. Lol, thanks - my new theory of evolution is just made FACT to myself (read Creation topic) - 1 Corinth 15:45 - (btw, it's my own opinion, don't take it seriously - but i have a theory that Humans existed before adam, but adam was the first one with a spirit) OK, now i'm gonna start talking about stuff. How many ways can you translate the bible for yourself? well, there are hundreds of christian religions out there - so there are hundreds of ways to translate it. Now how about the Bible and the Book of Mormon? well, 2 or 3. Now how about the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covanants (with ALL sections included, the Community of Christ removed some sections) - EXACTLY ONE. So the main purpose of having another Testament of Jesus Christ, in my opinion, is to put a stop to all of the fuss - there is one way to read all of this stuff now. And you have yet to disprove the fact that Nahom is rock solid proof of the Book of Mormon.
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 03-31-03 21:58 Reply	You forgot the Pearl of Great Price.
burr 87 posts 03-31-03 23:25 Reply	Jeremiah and Barrett, I am not against Mormons (for freedom of choice) only against people falsely saying things about the Bible. With that said, there are many differences between Mormons and the Bible and it causes me to not accept what you guys say. For instance, when I was talking with Jeremiah he asked why I thought that God had always existed. I know for a fact that Mormons do not believe that God has always existed; you guys believe that God had a beginning. You also believe that God is limited by his human characteristics. This goes against what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that God is unlimited in power and that he is beyond our human understanding- God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. The Bible also says that God was, is, and always will be - he is without beginning or end. This fact alone is enough for me to see that Mormons are not really Bible-believing Christians. If I offend either of you, I am sorry. My goal is not to offend only bring light to the fact that Christians and Mormons are not one and the same.
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-01-03 00:44 Reply	You are right. Christians, as in those who are not Mormon, and Mormons are not the same.
Xathien 1255 posts 04-01-03 01:19 Reply	It's quite hard to explain. It says God has existed for all eternity. However, he was created, and then he created all this stuff, hence creation of time, thus he was from the beginning of our eternity. We really don't need to worry about what/where God came from. All we need to worry about is living righteously. We'll learn all in due time.
burr 87 posts 04-01-03 20:46 Reply	God is not limited by time and space. I think it was Albert Einstein that proved this. You all know Einstein's relativity theory E=mc2. The importance of this theory is Einstein discovered that the only unchanging constant in the world is light (the c2). Everything can be broken down into a form of light. In studying the speed of light, Einstein discovered that if we reach the speed of light all time would stop as we know it; there would be no changing. Now if we look at James 1:17 KJV it says, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." Now if we compare what Einstein said about light and time and compare it with that verse in James we discover they both corroborate one another. Einstein proved that God is not bound by time. (NOTE: most of post taken from hart326)
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-01-03 22:23 Reply	Um, okay... Yes, light is constant. But what happens when it approaches a black hole? Or any other source of gravity, ever so small? It bends.
Barrett 385 posts 04-02-03 01:55 Reply	burr, maybe you should read the Joseph Smith translation of the bible. (pick up a mormon's bible and whenever a verse has a footnote that says "JST", look it up in the back - we did not alter the bible within the text (so that it's still legal to put "King James Version") - but in the back there are translations where the bible was mistranslated/written. (Joseph recieved revelation regarding those verses that were changed)
burr 87 posts 04-02-03 22:16 Reply	First of all, if I was not satisifed with an English Bible (i.e. NKJV, KJV, NLT, etc.) I would use a Hebrew or Greek Bible, not a Mormon Bible. Originally the Bible was in Hebrew and then Greek so it only makes sense to use them. Second, just because someone receives revelation does not mean it is of God. It is like 1 John 4:1 says, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." You have to test what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said to make sure it goes along with what the Bible teaches. In the case of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young their words do not match with the Bible.
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-02-03 22:40 Reply	"In the case of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young their words do not match with the Bible." Oh really? This I have to hear.
Barrett 385 posts 04-03-03 00:05 Reply	>>First of all, if I was not satisifed with an English Bible (i.e. NKJV, KJV, NLT, etc.) I would use a Hebrew or Greek Bible, not a Mormon Bible. i agree that Hebrew or Greek would be better than just plain KJV or NIV or whatever. Of course you wouldn't use a mormon bible cus you're not mormon, so what are you trying to say? >>Originally the Bible was in Hebrew and then Greek so it only makes sense to use them. I agree. >>Second, just because someone receives revelation does not mean it is of God. It is like 1 John 4:1 says, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." That's what prayer is for. You pray, and you'll get an answer. I did, my answer was that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of god. >>You have to test what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said to make sure it goes along with what the Bible teaches. In the case of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young their words do not match with the Bible. I prayed, and please point out what doesn't match the bible - your above comments have already been disproven to show any contradiction.
burr 87 posts 04-03-03 03:41 Reply	Anyway... I have a question for you two. My question is this: What is the difference between exaltation and salvation and what are the definitions of those two terms? [NOTE: I would like the Mormon definition.]
Barrett 385 posts 04-03-03 04:15 Reply	well i don't have any books with me, but salvation sounds like saved - similar to resurrection - but more along the lines of "Happiness". Exaltation would be going to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom to live with God.
Dexter345 677 posts 04-03-03 07:35 Reply	I don't think you understand what the word "proof" means. I can prove that the formula for the volume of a sphere is 4/3pir^3. It involves steps taken with a logical transition between each one. What you did was not proving anything. What you did was stating a neat coincidence. Hey check this out. I prayed for an answer, and I didn't get jack. And I don't believe for a second that you did either. You believed it in the first place, and then you prayed, and voila! You still believed it. -Dexter345-
Jeremiah Walgren 1187 posts 04-04-03 13:28 Reply	Salvation - being saved. Exaltation - being made equal with God. And Dexter, God won't give you an answer on your first try unless you have exceeding faith, or whatever other reason He may have. Plus, you must really want to have one and not just be doing it for kicks. And then there's the fact that God acts on His own time. If He didn't, what kind of God would He be?
Xathien 1255 posts 04-04-03 19:43 Reply	A God that wouldn't want us to improve much. And regarding the E=mc² thing, that means if something went at the speed of light, and time would stop. Pretty well explains God's eternity. Also, it says his 'mass' would be infinite. God is everywhere and everywhere anytime and everytime. You might want to try harder not to prove us right.
Barrett 385 posts 04-07-03 22:27 Reply	>>I don't think you understand what the word "proof" means. I can prove that the formula for the volume of a sphere is 4/3pir^3. It involves steps taken with a logical transition between each one. What you did was not proving anything. What you did was stating a neat coincidence. yeah, everyone knows that it's easy to guess the names AND location AND description of 2 cities on the opposite side of the planet without any prior knowledge. You're an idiot for thinking it's possible for that to be a coinsidence. >>Hey check this out. I prayed for an answer, and I didn't get jack. And I don't believe for a second that you did either. You believed it in the first place, and then you prayed, and voila! You still believed it. Have you read The Book of Mormon studiously (spelling?)? I doubt it. You have to read it with an open mind or else what's the point? I went to the LDS general conference last weekend to see and hear the prophet speak. (afternoon saturday and priesthood and was physically there) - that man is the most incredibly inspired man on the planet. If you watch him speak you will be blown away. So much confidence, so much truth. But anyway, on the way in there were a dozen or so protestors who held up signs like "CULT" and "Mormonism is worse than Homosexuality", and some others with references to back them up (i respect them more, but the references don't really back up what they were trying to say at all). Whenever i hear someone call my religion a cult i say "what's the definition of a cult?" - they regretfully and quiety say "you follow someone unconditionally" - EXACTLY!!! have mormons ever been told by the prophet to do anything that hurt anyone else? the answer is no, so calling my religion a cult is just ridiculous - all it is is a word with a negative connotation that everyone thinks means 'devil worshiper'. I really hope the rest of the world opens their eyes and stops being so prideful. - believe me, i have doubted my religion before, but every time i come back to it. It truly is Christ's church. And whoever said "you only believe it cus you were brought up that way" - perhaps, but last year alone there were nearly 300,000 converts to the church. That's 4 times as many new members as babies born into the church. I have a friend who was 16 when she joined, both of her parents followed her and were baptised as well. How can 1 church with such strict beliefs be so successful?

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